Post by Drew on Oct 3, 2017 13:01:54 GMT -8
Greetings all,
I have been debating this issue for over a dozen years. In nearly every atheist discussion boards I have been to the dialog always begins with the atheist asking theists to provide evidence or make a case in favor of the belief we owe the existence of the universe and humans to a Creator commonly referred to as God. Nothing wrong with that except there is never a fact or argument that can possibly be made that won't be summarily dismissed. The only reason they ask for a case is to dismiss it. Not all atheists I have encountered have been this way but its a typical response. Most (not all) atheists will also claim (no matter how sure they are God doesn't exist) that they make no claim they just lack belief in the claim we owe our existence to God. They have this notion that 'negative claims' don't have the burden of providing evidence only 'positive' claims do. For instance a commonly used argument to the theist is prove a teacup isn't circling around Saturn. They don't have to do any such thing. They can make a case, provide evidence and facts that support the belief all we observe not only could be, but was caused without any plan or design by naturalistic forces. How could it be otherwise if God doesn't exist? I don't know where that concept came from but it's clearly a dodge. What are they dodging? They are dodging the reality there isn't a very strong case to be made in favor of what they believe. Most atheists admit they don't know:
• What if anything caused the universe (nature and the laws of physics) we now observe to exist.
• Why they're laws of nature
• Why those laws allowed the conditions for stars, planets, solar systems and galaxies to exist.
• Why or how time began to exist
• Why sentient humans came into existence.
They refer to these as gaps of our knowledge and accuse theists of inserting God into the gaps of our knowledge. They are typically blind to naturalism in the gaps arguments because they are convinced naturalism is true. The gaps are real our knowledge of the universe starts after the universe began to exist. Prior to that (if prior is even a proper word) is very speculative. This brings out a fact that neither the theist or the atheist really knows if their point of view is actually true. In spite of that, many atheists state (in polls) they are 99.9999% sure we don't owe our existence to a Creator. Personally I'm not nearly as certain theism is true. I'm a theist because all things considered, I believe the available evidence points in that direction. I don't deny there is evidence in favor of a naturalistic cause of everything. I don't view naturalism as impossible or even unlikely, I view it as runner up to a theistic cause.
I mentioned at the top that this discussion invariably begins with the theist being tasked with providing evidence or making a case for their belief in God. My belief in a Creator isn't based on religion. You could say I'm a secular theist. I believe a Creator was involved because in my opinion it better fits and explains what can be observed. The following is the case I have been making in favor of theism.
The following indisputable facts lead me to believe we owe our existence to an intelligent agent commonly referred to as God as opposed to the counter belief that mindless unguided forces are responsible for all we observe.
1. The fact the universe exists
If the universe didn’t exist the claim naturalists and atheists make there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. The theistic claim God caused the universe wouldn’t be true if the universe didn’t exist. The fact the universe does exist favors the claim God caused the universe to exist.
2. The fact life exists
If a universe existed that was absolute chaos with no life, no laws of physics this would bolster the claim that it was caused by unguided natural forces that didn’t care if planets, stars or humans existed. In contrast for life to be possible a host of exacting conditions need to prevail.
3. The fact intelligent life exists.
An even greater number of conditions need to prevail to allow sentient life the time to develop. If unguided naturalistic forces were responsible they managed to create something unlike itself life and mind to exist without plan or intent to do so.
4. The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform and to a large extent predictable, amenable to scientific research and the laws of logic deduction and induction and is also explicable in mathematical terms.
I argue this is not a fact that comports with the belief we owe our existence to unguided mindless forces that don’t give a rats ass if the universe is explicable or knowable. This is what you would expect if the universe was engineered intentionally to cause sentient beings to exist.
5. The fact there are several characteristics of the universe that fall within an extremely narrow range that not only allow life as we know it, but also allow the existence of planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies.
This is not what one would expect to find if we existed in a universe that never intended humans to exist. A lot has to go right in a narrow degree of tolerance just for stars and planets to exist.
6. The fact that sentient beings cause virtual universes to exist which in effect is a working model of theism.
I have in the past been asked what a model of theism would look like. We can trace back the cause of virtual universes to transcendent beings who caused the virtual universe to exist. The scientists and engineers didn’t use the naturalistic method, they used the theistic method.
This isn’t proof theism is true it is a reasonable case to think it might be true, not based just on belief or a God in the gaps argument but upon the above facts.
Its not what we don't know that leads me to this conclusion, it's what we do know.
I have been debating this issue for over a dozen years. In nearly every atheist discussion boards I have been to the dialog always begins with the atheist asking theists to provide evidence or make a case in favor of the belief we owe the existence of the universe and humans to a Creator commonly referred to as God. Nothing wrong with that except there is never a fact or argument that can possibly be made that won't be summarily dismissed. The only reason they ask for a case is to dismiss it. Not all atheists I have encountered have been this way but its a typical response. Most (not all) atheists will also claim (no matter how sure they are God doesn't exist) that they make no claim they just lack belief in the claim we owe our existence to God. They have this notion that 'negative claims' don't have the burden of providing evidence only 'positive' claims do. For instance a commonly used argument to the theist is prove a teacup isn't circling around Saturn. They don't have to do any such thing. They can make a case, provide evidence and facts that support the belief all we observe not only could be, but was caused without any plan or design by naturalistic forces. How could it be otherwise if God doesn't exist? I don't know where that concept came from but it's clearly a dodge. What are they dodging? They are dodging the reality there isn't a very strong case to be made in favor of what they believe. Most atheists admit they don't know:
• What if anything caused the universe (nature and the laws of physics) we now observe to exist.
• Why they're laws of nature
• Why those laws allowed the conditions for stars, planets, solar systems and galaxies to exist.
• Why or how time began to exist
• Why sentient humans came into existence.
They refer to these as gaps of our knowledge and accuse theists of inserting God into the gaps of our knowledge. They are typically blind to naturalism in the gaps arguments because they are convinced naturalism is true. The gaps are real our knowledge of the universe starts after the universe began to exist. Prior to that (if prior is even a proper word) is very speculative. This brings out a fact that neither the theist or the atheist really knows if their point of view is actually true. In spite of that, many atheists state (in polls) they are 99.9999% sure we don't owe our existence to a Creator. Personally I'm not nearly as certain theism is true. I'm a theist because all things considered, I believe the available evidence points in that direction. I don't deny there is evidence in favor of a naturalistic cause of everything. I don't view naturalism as impossible or even unlikely, I view it as runner up to a theistic cause.
I mentioned at the top that this discussion invariably begins with the theist being tasked with providing evidence or making a case for their belief in God. My belief in a Creator isn't based on religion. You could say I'm a secular theist. I believe a Creator was involved because in my opinion it better fits and explains what can be observed. The following is the case I have been making in favor of theism.
The following indisputable facts lead me to believe we owe our existence to an intelligent agent commonly referred to as God as opposed to the counter belief that mindless unguided forces are responsible for all we observe.
1. The fact the universe exists
If the universe didn’t exist the claim naturalists and atheists make there is no evidence in favor of theism would actually be true. The theistic claim God caused the universe wouldn’t be true if the universe didn’t exist. The fact the universe does exist favors the claim God caused the universe to exist.
2. The fact life exists
If a universe existed that was absolute chaos with no life, no laws of physics this would bolster the claim that it was caused by unguided natural forces that didn’t care if planets, stars or humans existed. In contrast for life to be possible a host of exacting conditions need to prevail.
3. The fact intelligent life exists.
An even greater number of conditions need to prevail to allow sentient life the time to develop. If unguided naturalistic forces were responsible they managed to create something unlike itself life and mind to exist without plan or intent to do so.
4. The fact the universe has laws of nature, is knowable, uniform and to a large extent predictable, amenable to scientific research and the laws of logic deduction and induction and is also explicable in mathematical terms.
I argue this is not a fact that comports with the belief we owe our existence to unguided mindless forces that don’t give a rats ass if the universe is explicable or knowable. This is what you would expect if the universe was engineered intentionally to cause sentient beings to exist.
5. The fact there are several characteristics of the universe that fall within an extremely narrow range that not only allow life as we know it, but also allow the existence of planets, stars, solar systems and galaxies.
This is not what one would expect to find if we existed in a universe that never intended humans to exist. A lot has to go right in a narrow degree of tolerance just for stars and planets to exist.
6. The fact that sentient beings cause virtual universes to exist which in effect is a working model of theism.
I have in the past been asked what a model of theism would look like. We can trace back the cause of virtual universes to transcendent beings who caused the virtual universe to exist. The scientists and engineers didn’t use the naturalistic method, they used the theistic method.
This isn’t proof theism is true it is a reasonable case to think it might be true, not based just on belief or a God in the gaps argument but upon the above facts.
Its not what we don't know that leads me to this conclusion, it's what we do know.